Growing Lean
Growing Lean is aimed at helping entrepreneurs learn from other successful business owners who have successfully grown their business against all odds. Join our discussion to share the wealth of knowledge from people who have been in the trenches growing lean startups.
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Growing Lean
From Air Force Pilot to CEO: Brian Doyle's Journey and Insights on Innovative Business Leadership and Client Retention
In the second part of our conversation, we unearth Brian's insights on the critical role of client retention in business growth. Brian imparts his tried and tested strategies for pricing products and services, emphasizing on the significance of aligning prices to the value they provide to customers. He punctuates the conversation with a powerful message for business owners, urging them to have faith in their abilities and ensure their pricing drives success. To close off, Brian extends an invitation for anyone interested in an enriching dialogue to reach out to him directly via LinkedIn, email, or through his company's website. Don't let this chance to learn from an industry veteran pass you by!
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Welcome back to the growing Lean podcast sponsored by Lean Discovery Group. This is your host, dylan Burke, also known as Deage. I'm happy to be here with Brian Doyle, transformational leader, speaker and coach, and the president and CEO at Holden Advisors. Welcome, brian.
Speaker 2:Thanks, deage, great to be here.
Speaker 1:Amazing To get us started. Can you give us a little bit of your history and how you ended up? The president and CEO of Holden Advisors.
Speaker 2:You bet it's been a windy road. I started my career as an Air Force pilot and moved from flying C-17s to GED. Commercial finance, was a Six Sigma master black belt there, moved to other parts of the business to include sales and marketing, then went on to the customer experience space. While I was there, as a former salesperson and sales leader, I read the founder of Holden Advisors book called Negotiating with Backbone. I recognized myself in every one of the eight selling scenarios that he had laid out.
Speaker 2:Very quickly I saw the parts where I had done my job well. More importantly, I saw the parts where I had failed. I had messed up. Really, what I read into that and recognized was that procurement really can be the bully on the playground asking for your lunch money. I never liked that when I was a kid. I never liked it as an adult and I wanted to help other salespeople from being bullied and ultimately getting paid for the value that they provided. That's what attracted me to Holden Advisors. Then I was able to step up into the president role and then later president and CEO.
Speaker 1:Amazing. What does Holden Advisors offer?
Speaker 2:So really we solve one problem for our clients and it's getting them paid for the value that they provide. What I mean paid, I mean realizing the revenue and the profit for the value that they provide. We do it in two ways. We help them set the right price for their products and services based on the value that their customers derive from it. We help them get that revenue by creating sales strategies and instilling in their sales teams the skills and confidence to close profitable deals in the face of those aggressive procurement and buyer tactics.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing. Is this specific to any industry or is it a broad spectrum?
Speaker 2:It's actually not DJ. I'd love to be able to tell you that we focus in just two industries and that's all we do all day long, but the truth of it is is that it works across industries. We work in manufacturing professional services, data as a service, software as a service food ingredient. I mean, it really spans the gamut and what we found is that our clients, regardless of their industry, reap the benefits of what we do for them.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing, I love that. And how long have you been in this industry for?
Speaker 2:So the companies have been in business for about 20 years. I've been with the group 5 and in the president role about 3 and a half years.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing, well done. And have you adapted over the years to any changes or obstacles? And I'm especially curious about this influx of software as a service over the last few years. How has have you adapted to those changes?
Speaker 2:and yeah, yeah, so it's, you know, I would say, the first major adjustment, and it just so happened. I stepped into the president role in February of 2020, which was right at the very beginning of the pandemic.
Speaker 2:And so that's right, good news and bad news.
Speaker 2:But that was the first big adjustment is we used to do everything in person and we knew we couldn't serve our clients if we were just waiting for this pandemic to blow through, which, as you know, took years. And so we moved to virtual workshops, virtual coaching, virtual projects very quickly, and that helped our clients survive, even though the environment was super chaotic. The other thing that we're doing with software and continuing to grow in the spaces it's not just about a single workshop, as you know, as everybody you know listen to the podcast knows, if you sit in a workshop for a day, by the end of the week you've probably forgotten half of what you learned, no matter how good it was. By the end of the month, you might have lost 90% of what you learned, and so what we're doing is using software as a service to build in a learning path that embeds negotiating with backbone and some of our pricing concepts into our clients every day life, so that it continues to be reinforced and they continue to be able to use it.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing. I love that, and are they? Do you make use of any specific tools on a day to day that are helping you grow the business?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say so much like software tools other than a little bit of AI, and I can speak to that in a sec More like frameworks. So, in terms of being successful, for us, number one is hiring awesome people, and one of the frameworks we use is from Patrick Lenzioni. He's got a book called the ideal team player and he says look, if you're hiring people who are humble, hungry and smart, you're going to end up with the right sort of folks. And that's what we did, and we have the right people in the right seats. The other thing that we use is the entrepreneurial operating system, or EOS, and it's a framework for us to help set our strategy and execute our strategy in a way that it helps us think about today, but also thinking about what's coming six, 12, 36 months, even out to 10 years, where we headed, and those frameworks help us quite a bit.
Speaker 1:Okay, amazing. And then you did mention that you're making use of some AI tools or making use of AI in your business, and I'd love to hear about that, because there's been such a huge influx of AI tools in the last couple of years and it's really changing the way people do business. It's making everything more efficient. I use it pretty much on everything I do, even on these podcasts. We use it to chop it up into relative clips for the various platforms. So I'd love to hear what you're using and how other people could take advantage of them.
Speaker 2:Right. So two ways, deige. In terms of our pricing projects, we really believe in in-depth interviews. Surveys take you so far, data analysis takes you so far. We do those things.
Speaker 2:But sitting down and talking with folks and their customers and really getting under the covers of what matters to them, where they derive value, what are those value drivers? And AI gives us a head start with that because we don't have to ask the basic questions. We can do that ahead of time. We've got all of our research wrapped up and then we can go ask the hard questions. When you only get 20, 30, 40 minutes with somebody, you want to dive really into what's going on. So we certainly use it for that.
Speaker 2:And then you know, I refer to this embedding, negotiating. With Backbone. We have AI tools that are interactive with our clients. So our client is, say, a salesperson is working through a scenario and there is AI in the background reacting to what they've done, what they've said, the choices they've made, and it's sort of a create your own story so that the salesperson can see how a buyer would react to their actions, helps them diagnose what kind of buyer type they're dealing with and it lets them practice in a safe environment, so that when they're out there in front of that sourcing or procurement group, they feel more confident.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I actually used something similar in my previous role about six months ago. I think it was called Jenny AI and it was basically we could whatever face to face and practice booking meetings and they give us objections and it would rate us out of 100 based on all the different mark markings. And those were super cool. I just thought because there was like a four or five second delay in response. It was a bit not as accurate as the real thing, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pardon me, these, these react quickly. Ok, that's part of the drill If you're in a conversation with your client, particularly if you're negotiating. Unfortunately, there's not often a five second lag where you can say what does this mean to me? How do I react? You got to have a plan and be able and be ready to respond. Not just react, but respond.
Speaker 1:Exactly what is this? Is it a program available to the public? What is it?
Speaker 2:So it's what we refer to it as embedding backbone Built on, you know, our flagship negotiation program called negotiating with backbone, and it's something that our clients have access to and if, if somebody wanted to reach out to me, I could. I could talk them through. You know how it might work and how how my work for them and it's my email address is just be Doyle At Holden advisors, with an s on the end dot com.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I love that. I'll actually chat to you a bit more about that offline. I'm very intrigued. Ok, sounds good, awesome. So where do you see your industry heading? Because we're obviously at a pivotal point in, firstly, technological evolution and a shift in the way businesses operate. So where do you see your industry heading and how do you plan to overcome all the changes that are inevitably going to happen?
Speaker 2:Well, dee, you got to stay as close as you can to the leading edge, while staying true to what you do. So there's a balance here. I think our industry is going to continue to grow and as we sit here today at the end of 2023, I think it's going to rebound. I think things have been a little slow because of the economy and the uncertainty around the economy. It's going to rebound when everybody gets comfortable with okay, the world's not going to end, let's continue to grow, let's continue to go get those profits. So I think that's where the industry is going.
Speaker 2:And then, in terms of all of the changes, as leaders, we have to think about which of these are tools that are going to help us advance what we do and what we do well, and what are shiny objects that are going to distract us. And so for me, it's always coming back to okay, holden advisors helps you set the right price of pricing strategy, understanding your value, how do you go to market and then go get that price through the negotiation, training and coaching. So if I've got technology, but it's taken me out of that core capability what we're super good at then I'm going to question whether or not I need to embrace that technology strategy Now, if I can apply it to making us more efficient, getting information to our clients better or sooner, or whatever, then yeah, it's something I care about and want to spend some time with.
Speaker 1:Okay, awesome, thank you. And, without getting too personal, what are your goals and objectives for Holden advisors over the next, or what are the company's objectives for the next couple of years? Yeah, where do you see the company heading?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, the way we measure our success is our clients' success, and so that makes things easy because we're totally aligned and I think Dij in terms of leading indicators and I think in terms of lagging indicators, because sometimes ideal cycle time could take a year, so I don't want to necessarily just wait for the results.
Speaker 2:What do I need to think about in terms of making my clients successful in the short term? And so some of the ways we look at that from a leading indicator perspective is helping our clients improve how they think about negotiations and how they think about their own value. And we can do that even just through self-assessments, maybe before an engagement, how they're thinking about value, how comfortable they are doing certain things up against procurement, and then how does that feel after the workshop? And then a lagging indicator is literally just how much does the pricing or the profit improve after an engagement with us? And it's pretty common for a client to see a 10% profit improvement in the first year. And so those are the things that we're looking at. When you say, okay, how do I want to get better, what am I thinking about in terms of strategy? It's like, how do I drive those improvements with our clients?
Speaker 1:Okay, great, you kind of just answered my next question as well. I wanted to say how long do your clients usually stay with you, because obviously I'm not sure how long do they stay with you, and is retention one of your key performance indicators?
Speaker 2:Internally it is, and that's how you know you're doing the right thing. Because if you do an engagement, it's one thing for somebody to say this was really great, so anyway, till next time, never talk to you again. It's quite a bit more if somebody says this is awesome, we're executing this right now. Then six months later they say, hey, can you help us do the next thing? Six months after that, hey, can you come back? We actually have a different division. Can you go talk to them? That's what we're starting to see more and more.
Speaker 2:It is really a strategic priority for us as a business is to get those follow-on engagements, but it's got to come from the client. So it's not us, like being better salespeople, to go talk them into the next engagement. It's them realizing wow, this is really impactful. I need to have these folks back, even with smaller companies. We're seeing folks where we've got two right now that are relatively smaller clients and we're back for the third engagement with maybe a different product line or a different part of the country or a different part of the world, where they're saying can you do this again, but do it in a different area? So that's like you suggested. It's huge for us.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love that. What is the size of the general businesses that you work with? I know you mentioned you also do small businesses, but is it mostly like on an enterprise level, or do you work with SMEs as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we do work with smaller companies. We've actually grown over the last two years quite a bit in the private equity-owned space. So private equity firms and funds will come to us and say we've got a portfolio company that needs pricing help. Can you help them improve their price? So we've been working with those smaller companies quite a bit over the last two years and some of those are actually returned or the private equity fund will ask us to go work for another company. So we've seen those. But we work with real big companies too. We've got clients that are in the neighborhood of two billion in revenue per year. Some of our larger clients are in that space.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love that. So we are running out of time a little bit here, but before I go I wanted to just ask firstly, do you have any advice for business owners for what you teach them? Do you have anything that? If you could say one sentence to business owners, what would it be in terms of making sure their price drives, etc. And believing in themselves?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I have a few that I've written down over the years and they're really just lessons I've learned from my own mistakes. I'd say one of them is take care of yourself so you can take care of your team. It's interesting, it's what the flight attendants tell us at the beginning of every flight Put on your own oxygen mask before assisting others as business owners and as business leaders particularly folks who you're traveling a lot, you're working from home. This gig could be 20 hours a day if you let it. That'll work really good for about three months, and then you turn into a jerk who's ineffective. So there's got to be a balance here of taking care of yourself, whatever that is working out, reading, taking a nap, whatever. That way, you're your best for all those people who depend on you as a leader. So if I had to pick one today, that's my one.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thank you so much, brian, for your time and for all your insights. I found it very inspirational. I've got a lot to think about. So, before we sign off, I know you did mention your email address, but what is the best way for people to reach out to Brian Doyle, if you have any offers, or if they want to follow your story or need advising? What's the best way for them to follow you and reach out to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that email is pretty good. Be like Brian Doyle at HoldenAdvisorscom. You can find me on LinkedIn Just Brian Doyle at HoldenAdvisors on LinkedIn and then our website is HoldenAdvisorscom. So all those places are good places to check us out and if you want to reach me directly, that'd be awesome. Love that interaction.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, thanks again, Brian. I really appreciate your time and I look forward to see what the future holds. Great Thanks for having me. Amazing.